User Talk: John Tann

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<span style="background-color: pink; color: white">'''KGirlTrucker81'''</span><sup> <span style= "color:pink">huh?</span> what I've been doing ↗</sup> 20:51, 29 January 2017 (UTC)</div>

A page you started (Austroaeschna eungella) has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Austroaeschna eungella ↗, John Tann!

Wikipedia editor Animalparty just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

<blockquote>Please use the most specific (narrow) stubs possible, e.g. {{tl|dragonfly-stub}}, for better categorization.</blockquote>

To reply, leave a comment on Animalparty's talk page.

<small>Learn more about page curation ↗.</small>

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Autopatrol

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right|80px ↗
Hi John Tann, I just wanted to let you know that I have [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=User%3A{{PAGENAMEU}} added] the "{{mono|autopatrolled}}" permission to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers ↗. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled ↗. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! <span style="color:#228b22; font-family:comic sans ms;">Fabrictramp</span> | <span style="color:#960018; font-family:Papyrus;">talk to me</span> 19:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at User talk:Babymissfortune#Question about your edit on a page I created

15px|link=|alt= ↗You are invited to join the discussion at User talk:Babymissfortune#Question about your edit on a page I created. '''<sup><span style="color:#552582;">Baby</span><span style="color:#061922;">miss</span><span style="color:#FDB927;">fortune</span> ↗</sup>''' 10:15, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

In appreciation

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|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Awarded for your dedication and hard work in expanding the number of Australian Odonata ↗ articles on the English Wikipedia, thus filling in numerous gaps in the knowledge base. (Hardly a novice now John!) Summerdrought (talk) 07:52, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
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Ummm thanks Summerdrought. I wasn't expecting that.
John Tann (talk) 11:52, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Family genera categories

Regarding categories for genera in a family I'll leave it to your discretion, as your more active working on Odonata then me. The category structure for many groups of insects is not well developed, but where it is well developed it is normal to have a "Fooidae genera" category for families that have articles for a large number of genera, and various genus level categories for genera with large numbers of species articles.

It's good to keep categories at a reasonable size when there's an obvious logical system for subcategories. Taxonomy categories have a logical system for subcategorization. "Reasonable size" isn't precisely defined, but a category with more than 200 entries can't display all the members on a single page, so would be clearly advisable to split into subcategories; Epiprocta/Anisoptera genera isn't quite to 200 entries, but it's getting pretty close. On the other hand, categories shouldn't be very small. If there aren't going to be more than 5-10 entries it may not be worth creating a subcategory. Plantdrew (talk) 20:20, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the background, Plantdrew. I'll give one a go. John Tann (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Zygoptera / Damselfly

Hi Chiswick. You just re-introduced :Category:Taxa named by Edmond de Sélys Longchamps ↗ into the article on Damselflies. When in fact Selys named not '''damselfly''' but '''Zygoptera'''.
I think you just made the same mistake as me. I added that category to the Damselfly page, and then realised that it already existed on the redirect page from Zygoptera ↗, and so I removed it. I don't think this category belongs on the damselfly page.

Does this make sense? John Tann (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

:: No. The article is THE one and only article on the Zygoptera, which is why Z. redirects there (we prefer to use English names for taxa, where they exist and are unproblematic, and the article requires the categories for Zygoptera. By the way, Chiswick isn't my forename. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

:: The problem with putting a Category link at the bottom of a page with a heading Damselfly, is that Damselfly will appear in that category. Now Selys named Zygoptera. So the Category link at the bottom of the Zygoptera page (even though it is a redirect) appears in the :Category:Taxa named by Edmond de Sélys Longchamps ↗, and shows as the word '''''Zygoptera''''' in italics (meaning it is a redirect). Also in that same category is the word '''Damselfly''' - because of the Category link from the Damselfy page - which is out of place because Categeries of '''Taxa named by XXX''' usually don't have common names.

::Sorry about the name. John Tann (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

:::{{ping|Chiswick Chap}} The logic John Tann is going with is described at WP:INCOMPATIBLE ↗; if the title of the category is incompatible with the target of a redirect, but is compatible with the redirecting term, the category goes on the redirect. Wikipedia isn't consistent in whether categories with a title implying a scientific name are always on a scientific name redirect or a common name target. Take a look at :Category:Bird genera ↗ and especially its daughter :Category:Monotypic bird genera ↗ (note that redirects are italicized when viewing category contents). With very few exceptions, for bird genera, the categories are on scientific names whether they are redirects or articles (with monotypic bird genera, the category members are almost all redirects). :Category:Insect orders ↗ is another that consistently holds scientific names. There's also the "taxon described in year categories" (e.g. :Category:Animals described in 1758 ↗). "Taxa named by authority" categories are relatively new, and as far as I've seen, there's been no discussion whether these should hold only article titles (whether common or scientific names) or only scientific names (whether redirects or article title). Plantdrew (talk) 02:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

:::: OK, another small eccentricity in the category system. Ours not to reason why. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

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Please don't blank categories

Hello. Please don't blank categories as you did with {{cl|Isotictidae}}. If there's an "obvious" mistake in a category name, follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy ↗ to get it renamed. The advantage of doing things the "official" way is that a bot will do all the boring work of fixing up all the articles that use the category.Le Deluge (talk) 19:19, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the advice Le Deluge. I apologise for doing things the wrong way. I thought, however, that I was following advice from that page:
Categories that qualify for speedy deletion (per Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, e.g. "patent nonsense", "recreation", categories that have been empty for seven days) can be tagged with the regular speedy tags, such as '''db|reason''', and no delay is required to process these.
:ie I thought by leaving it empty for seven days would qualify it for speedy deletion.
:Do you recommend that we use the tag '''cfr-speedy|''New name''''', instead? If so, won't that leave the badly spelt latin name in circulation (as a redirect)? John Tann (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::It could be explained more clearly, but you need to put the appropriate tag - {{tl|db-empty}} - on the empty category before the clock starts ticking for the 7 days, there's no other (easy) way to know how long a category has been empty for otherwise. Yep, you want cfr-speedy - or '''<nowiki>{{subst:cfr-speedy|newname}}</nowiki>''' to be precise. Everything is different in category space - aside from needing to formally request even minor rename moves, category redirects are discouraged so category moves don't create them. So you don't have to worry about leaving the misspelling in circulation - although it's not the end of the world if it was, if one person can't spell it then others probably can't either (a redirect doesn't legitimise a spelling, Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER ↗).Le Deluge (talk) 13:26, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Le Deluge}} Thanks again for taking the time to explain. Do I need to do anything more with {{cl|Isotictidae}} now, or is what you have done enough to finish it off? John Tann (talk) 21:56, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
::::No, it's good for now, it will die in a week. I've also tweaked the language in the instructions you referred to, hopefully they're a bit clearer now. For really obvious mistakes in English you can use {{tl|db-g6}} but for Latin it's probably better to use db-empty.<g> Le Deluge (talk) 22:22, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you

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Obsolete dragonfly families

Hi, I notice you've been making updates to pages for obsolete dragonfly families recently. I just wanted to say, watch out with their genera lists, since they were probably incomplete. For instance Brachytronidae ↗ now states ''Dendroaeschna ↗'' to have been its only genus, whereas the family's name itself suggests it included at least ''Brachytron ↗'' as well (I have no citation for this, mind). Gomphomacromiidae ↗ also probably included ''Gomphomacromia ↗'', not just ''Archaeophya ↗'' (again, I have no citation). Monster Iestyn (talk) 17:07, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

:Good suggestion. I have been working through the higher groupings of dragonflies - families and superfamilies and bringing them up-to-date. In the case of obsolete taxa I was changing the grammar - eg. present tense to past tense, sometimes restructuring the page, and giving a brief reason.
:But of course, that skips the whole history of that family. And so things like ''Brachytronidae ↗ now states Dendroaeschna ↗ to have been its only genus'' probably should have read something like ''up until recently Dendroaeschna ↗ had been its only genus'' (For me, there is not much value in researching the entire history of this now-defunct family, when I am just wanting to leave a record of recent updates).
:Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. There have been a lot of dragonfly pages updated over the past few weeks and I appreciate your comments in getting it right.
:John Tann (talk) 06:13, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
::No problem, glad to help.
::On that note, since I have been digging into fossil Odonata systematics recently on the Wikispecies side, I've been realising that - rather annoyingly - they follow a different classification from extant (living) Odonata. Even worse, I think that some of those obsolete families are even still used by palaeontologists working on fossil Odonata. But I see that en.wiki's Odonata articles are primarily about the extant Odonata at the moment, so maybe it doesn't matter? Monster Iestyn (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
:::Good on you. I love the idea of dragonflies having been around for many millions of years, and they are still going strong. The more we know about them, the better.
:::I wish you good fortune with your researches
:::John Tann (talk) 08:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

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Etymologies

Hi, John. I've been watching a lot of the pages that you edit for many years, and have found your editing to be exceptionally high quality. That said, I notice that when you've been adding etymology sections to articles recently, you sometimes properly qualify them (using words like "probably") when the original author did not provide an explicit etymology themselves, but you sometimes do not. This is a topic that has come up repeatedly in the Wikipedia Tree of Life discussions, and the general feeling is that unless the original author specifically stated the etymology, for an editor to provide one is original research. That means if it is to be included at all, it needs to be made clear that this is a '''presumed''' etymology that cannot be confirmed. Citing a dictionary, or Brown's book (which I literally have here next to me every day at work) is '''still''' original research, whether it's a dragonfly or ''Tyrannosaurus rex'' - if the author didn't say it, the article should not imply that they did. You should always say "presumably derived" whenever it is your suggested etymology, and not directly attributable to the original author. With that small thing in mind, please do keep up the good work! Dyanega (talk) 17:22, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for taking the time to send me a message, Dyanega.
:I will take on board your suggestion. Would you mind having a look at this recent edit on the combined family/genus page for the dragonfly Macromidia ↗, with a view to giving critical feedback.
:This is how I described the etymology of both the family and the genus:
::==Etymology==
::The family name '''Macromidiidae''' is derived from the type genus ''Macromidia'', with the zoological suffix ''-idae'' denoting a family.
::Martin did not explain the origin of the generic name '''''Macromidia''''', but when establishing the genus he noted its similarities to ''Macromia ↗'' and ''Idionyx ↗''. The name ''Macromidia'' may therefore have been intended to reflect its intermediate appearance between these two genera.<ref name="Martin 1906"/>
:1. Is this okay?
:2. Should I give a reference for the first line? - eg cite an IUCN paragraph that spells out how to make a family name
:3. In the second paragraph I spell out that the author (Martin) didn't give the etymology, however the phrase '''"may therefore have been intended"''' tells the reader this is an informed interpretation rather than something Martin explicitly stated. Is this a Wikipedia-acceptable phrase?
:3a. This is the reference for this etymology: {{cite book |url=https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/48463640 |page=80 |title=Collections zoologiques du baron Edm. de Selys Longchamps. Cordulines |language=French |volume=17 |year=1906 |author=Martin, René}}
:The last two paragraphs of the section (just below the diagram) describe the two similar genera (in French)
::Cette espèce a un peu la taille et le facies d' ''Oxygastra Curtisi'' ; elle se rapproche des ''Idionyx'', dont
::elle diffère par ses deux rangs postrigonaux et les appendices du mâle de conformation très différente.
::Elle est très voisine des ''Macromia'', avec pourtant un faciès très différent. L’abdomen est légèrement
::grossi à la base chez les deux sexes et élargi un peu aux 8-9 segments. Le (male) a les oreillettes jaunes et les
::ailes inférieures moyennement excavées; la (female) est remarquable par la largeur de ses ailes inférieures.
:Which more-or-less translates to:
::This species is about the size and general appearance of ''Oxygastra curtisii''. '''It approaches ''Idionyx'', but differs in''' its post-triangular veins and in the form of the male appendages. '''It is also very close to ''Macromia'', although''' its appearance is quite different. In both sexes the abdomen is slightly swollen at the base and becomes broader on segments 8 and 9. The male has yellow anal appendages with the lower appendage moderately hollowed. The female is remarkable for the breadth of the hindwings. (my emphasis)
:Thank you for your interest,
:John Tann (talk) 11:53, 27 June 2026 (UTC) John Tann (talk) 11:53, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

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