User Talk: Synpath

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Drawings for thiamine ↗

Hi Synpath. A bit of background. BIOVIA Draw is the current version of the original ISIS/Draw ↗ program which I have been using since the mid 1980s, when it was introduced by MDL ↗. Their .mol format files (for individual molecules) are now open-source and widely used, for example by ChemSpider ↗. However their .skc (sketch) file vector graphic format for complete drawings is still proprietary. In its current incarnation, the program can export several image file formats including .png and .emf (the Microsoft enhanced metafile ↗ format) but NOT .svg. Hence, to generate Wikimedia-acceptable .svg I use .emf (which Inkscape ↗ can read) and make the conversion to .svg in that program.
thumb |Thiamine biosynthesis as thumb ↗
MOS:CSDG ↗ says we should be using ACS drawing conventions, as you know. These are implemented as a settings option in BIOVIA Draw. Take a look a this .png file in my Google cloud ↗. I can't load this to Wikimedia as it is a screenshot and so copyrighted. If your monitor is set up exactly like mine, the scale bar will be 1 cm on-screen and the drawing (which is part of the thiamine biosynthesis) has exactly the specified ACS settings as shown in the .xml document that the drawing program provides. Note the 10 pt Arial default and the specifications for many other items, not all shown. Now the interesting bit. If I take the corresponding .svg file and include it in a thumbnail, it looks as on the right: however this is not defaulting to 1 cm bond lengths, since the Wikipedia default for thumbnails is 220px total width. To get an image back to the default ACS size of 1 cm bond length on my monitor, I find by trial-and-error that I need to set this particular image to 800px thus:
:800px| ↗
Since these are the same .svg file, clicking on either will provide a version that is as large as your monitor will allow. I'm going to reset all the drawings in the thiamine ↗ article so they appear at the same 1 cm bond length on my monitor, which I hope will satisfy your plea for consistency. Nevertheless, we may get complaints from other readers that the diagrams are too large, depending on individual output devices. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:51, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

:Apologies for not doing the cloud permissions correctly: I've given you access and this should now work for anyone with the link. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:14, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
:@Michael D. Turnbull thanks for the screen grab of your Biovia diagrams with the XML settings. I see that the diagram is faithfully reproduced as an svg, and now think that the issue is that the Biovia ACS template does not reflect the current ACS recommendations.
:The style guide has guidelines stating "Make the size of the rings and type proportional. The published size of six-membered rings should be approximately ¼ in. (6.35 mm) in diameter; the published size of five-membered rings should be slightly smaller. The type size should be 5–8 points." ↗, which for 1 cm bond lengths is ~13.5-21.5 pt font. The ACS recommended settings for ChemDraw (courtesy link ↗) are for 0.508 cm bond lengths (fixed length = 14.4 pt) and a font size of 10 pt, which is on the upper end of the guideline range of 7-11 pt font.
:Thanks for putting up my bone crushingly low stakes nonsense. I just see this as an easy quality of life fix for an article looking to upgrade its rating. Synpath (talk) 19:36, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
:Also, side note: thanks for your contributions over at Teahouse and the Science Reference Desk. I've been reading through that on and off the past few weeks and got a feel for what Wikipedia policies and editor culture are from there. Synpath (talk) 19:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
::Maybe this is a discussion we need to take wider. I'm not sure when the current Wikipedia MOS:CSDG ↗ were first proposed and to what extent they have subsequently been revised. I suspect that the ACS guidelines have changed since they now probably take camera-ready diagrams when previously they redrew what contributors supplied. The other issue is that whatever guidelines we set, WP editors will often ignore them, so the issue is the balance between wanting contributions and wanting standardisation. As an (ex) professional organic chemist working in industry, I think that the majority of WP chemical drawings are pretty good even without stringent adherence to standards. Do you think that we should press for more standardisation and if so, can you give some examples of currently bad practice you would want to change? I'm willing to help do that if, on balance, readers would benefit. Mike Turnbull (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
:::Essentially the first version of MOS:CHEM(4 Mar 2008) ↗ stated the adoption of the ACS style. I'd imagine this implies the most up to date version of the guidelines rather than whatever was written at the time.
:::Also, I absolutely agree that most articles with chemical diagrams are solid, even though achieving strict adherence to any style guide on Wikipedia is a pipe dream. For example, the diagrams in Aldol reaction ↗ vary widely and some don't strictly follow ACS, but they're all clear and easily legible. When I do see issues it's usually on discipline specific (i.e. obscure) start/C-rated articles, as you might expect. For example, the mechanism at Serine Protease ↗ has a mostly fine diagram (sloppy arrows and debatable geometry aside), but it suffers legibility issues while scaling down. This diagram could be made more legible by applying the ACS style.
:::I think there's a reasonable expectation that an article receiving a GA rating or above wouldn't have small quality of life issues like that. If that's not a requirement for GA, then it might warrant discussion. Otherwise, I can see talking about adding a note on Biovia ACS template settings to MOS:CSDG. Synpath (talk) 22:19, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
::::OK, good idea. Would you like to summarise what we have discussed and propose something on WT:WikiProject Chemistry/Structure drawing workgroup ↗ and I'll comment with a ping to a few editors I know who will have views? You could link my Google .png file if that helps. Mike Turnbull (talk) 22:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::And here I am not knowing the group even existed. I've written a short post and will add it soon. Synpath (talk) 23:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for doing that. I want to do a bit of research regarding Biovia Draw and if possible work out why it appears not to follow the ACS convention when it has a specific template which says it does! That will take a few days and I'll post at the workgroup page when I reach a conclusion. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::I was interested in why that might be too, and I searched through the some of the top cited articles in JACS from 1980-1990 (which I was surprised to find that they are mostly computational chemistry with few complex structures). The quick summary of what I found was that there was not a lot of consistency in how structure diagrams were rendered. Maybe the early 80s looked reminiscent of 70s (manual?) typesetting, but besides that not too many patterns. I wonder if around that time there were no real guidelines/competing guidelines for chemical drawings while academics and journals adapted to PCs with graphics/GUI software.
:::::::Pure speculation from going through something like 10 articles in 15 minutes or so, and my rough knowledge of PC history. Synpath (talk) 19:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
::::::::As I've mentioned on the Project page, it turns out that this whole mess is my own fault. I thought I was using ACS settings but it turns out I had mistakenly altered them on my local computer and saved the wrong configuration in a personal profile. I'll go back now and redo all the diagrams in the thiamine article at the new settings. Thanks very much for prompting me to get to the bottom of this! Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:32, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
:::::::::Oh no! I hate it when software doesn't work the way you want/expect it to. (Why is there no 'undo' in Pymol for visual changes!) At least we've figured out the disconnect, and all the best. Synpath (talk) 17:41, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

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Hello

It looks like your interests overlap more with Wikipedia:WikiProject Pharmacology ↗, butwould you be willing to lend a hand with a little project? Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine ↗ is trying to get at least one ref into every medicine-related article. The list is getting shorter, but we've still got a bit more than 100 to go, and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced articles/Backlog drives/November 2024 ↗ ends in just less than a week. If you could add a source to even one or two of them, it would really help us out. Here's how to help:

# Pick an article from the list. Most of them are organizations, people, or other subjects that do not require any specialized medical knowledge.
# Find at least one reliable source ↗ and add it to the article.
# Remove or update any maintenance tags at the top of the article.
# Edit the list to mark off the item or leave some notes about it so the next person will know that this one is done. (Try editing the page in the visual editor ↗, because it's much easier for tables.)
# That's all!

Also, if you ever need help with medicine-related articles, please feel free to put Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine ↗ on your watchlist ↗, and to join the discussion whenever you'd like. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

:I am much more interested in molecules and proteins, but Quarantine Act 1721 ↗ caught my eye since that seemed like it should easily be notable and have several reliable sources available. And it certainly does, I added two based on the similar Quarantine Act 1710 ↗ found as a subsection at Quarantine ↗.
:Also, Integrin alphaXbeta2 ↗ in the current state should be BLAR'd/"merged" and point to Integrin alpha X ↗ where the complex is mentioned. Maybe it can be deleted in favour of WP:REDYES ↗ or expanded, not sure on that one. I'll do a little reading there. ― '''Syn'''path 01:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
::I've merged and redirected Integrin alphaXbeta2 ↗ to Macrophage-1 antigen#CR3 and CR4 ↗. After some reading CR4 seems to often be discussed alongside CR3 and that's also the case in Wikipedia. It seems appropriate to redirect there. ― '''Syn'''path 01:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
:::{{thank you}} very much! I always appreciate a good merge or WP:BLAR ↗. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Dark mode usability issues introduced in "Adding class=skin-invert-image to dark drawings for readability in dark mode per https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Recommendations_for_night_mode_compatibility_on_Wikimedia_wikis#Apply_filters_to_dark_images_with_transparent_background" edits

I was reading trough the Adderall ↗ article and noticed all of the informational diagrams looked wrong in dark mode. The diagrams had white-on-transparent text with a <code>white</code> background underneath. The three diagrams in question are defined in Template:Psychostimulant_addiction ↗, Template:Amphetamine_pharmacokinetics ↗ and Template:Amphetamine_pharmacokinetics ↗. You had the same ↗ latest ↗ edits ↗ on all three diagrams, wrapping them in <code>class="skin-invert-image"</code>. This seems to have caused the aforementioned usability issues in dark mode. To make the diagrams usable in dark mode, I had to add <code>| image-bg-color = unset</code> to Template:Annotated image 4 ↗ and <code>class="skin-invert"</code> around Template:Annotations ↗.

Were your edits automated in some way?

I am not sure if your edits, or some upstream changes to included templates made the diagrams unreadable in dark mode. Please double-check that all edits where you added <code>class="skin-invert-image"</code> don't introduce usability issues in dark mode. Thanks, Susko3 (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

:I was worried that some of my edits were introducing inconsistent effects for dark mode since adding <code>class=skin-invert-image</code> has no effect on the mobile app. For me and my browser the diagram was perfectly legible in dark mode and the only visible difference between my edit and yours for {{tp|Amphetamine pharmacokinetics}} is that the background is now transparent rather than black in dark mode. I'm unsure of how I would go about testing the visual effect of edits for other browser settings. For reference I'm on Firefox 131.0.2 and will update to the newer version soon-ish. I plan to tinker and ask around, and I welcome suggestions. In the mean time, I've slowed down making these types of edits in case I end up having to undo them all. ― '''Syn'''path 20:40, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Niacin DAB page

I see you are editing the disambiguation page, but let me inform you. I also have recently edited it, see my version ↗, but David notMD reverted it saying to wait for the closer ↗ of the move request.

He is the main contributor to the Niacin article ↗, and he is opposing the rename. I couldn't really understand his arguments & point of view. Anyway, just letting you know.

― Arthurfragoso (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

:Your edits to the dab page ran afoul the dab formatting guidelines/practices ↗ and definitely sparked some grumpiness. My edits probably should have waited for the RM to close too, but the RM is old, I thought I had a reasonable alteration and be bold ↗ and all that. Maybe its also one of the more polite elbow nudges I can throw out.
:The niacin naming issue is just plain confusing, and its even sometimes unclear what compound journal abstracts are referring to. What I found after reading some of those abstracts in niacin ↗ was that articles coming from more clinical-oriented research tend to refer to nicotinic acid as niacin, and no other molecule as niacin. Governments and thus regulated food labels use niacin more as a stand in for vitamin B3 varieties. If I had to guess I'd say David notMD is an academic that comes from a clinical research setting and that niacin=nicotinic acid usage is by far the primary topic for them. I can definitely just be wrong in some way and I haven't actually read the entire RM discussion, as that probably has gone on for a few too many bytes in my opinion. ― '''Syn'''path 03:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
::{{u|Arthurfragoso}}, {{u|Synpath}} For background, yes, my PhD and career were in nutritional biochemistry, and I am the person who raised Niacin ↗ from B-class to GA in 2020. I do not pretend to 'own' the article, but I do have a strong opinion that Niacin is the better title for the article. David notMD (talk) 12:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Amino Acid: Revision History

Taurine is an amino acid that doesn't carry a carboxylic acid group, therefore the definition of amino acid is stated as follows: a compound with both acid and amine functional groups.

I am aware it's most commonly defined as a carboxylic acid, but this fallacy is called appeal to the people, in cases of such scientific definitions, being popular doesn't achieve truth.

If by definition an amino acid must have a carboxylic function, then it's either Taurine isn't an amino acid or that is not the definition of an amino acid. MeAbdelkrim (talk) 09:46, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

:I'd be interested to see a reference that pins down the definition of an amino acid to "any organic molecule with an amino group and acidic functional group". I haven't found one. Most provide definitions relative to proteinogenic amino acids, i.e. amino + carboxylic acid. Such a permissive definition has problems as it puts molecules like phosphatidylethanolamine ↗, sphingosine-1-phosphate ↗ and phosphorylated glucosamine ↗ into the category of 'amino acid'—not a very helpful definition for the study of metabolism and biology.
:As for taurine specifically, there is also no reason to highlight it in the lead ↗ on such a broad topic. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 13:41, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
::There are plenty of references online that imply that amino acids don't need a carboxylic acid to be classified as so, for example PubChem ↗ classifies Taurine ↗ as an amino acid.
::You are right in that molecules like phosphatidylethanolamine ↗ should be classified as amino acids based on this broad definition, I don't find a reason not to include them as amino acids, they won't lose their belonging to phospholipids ↗ by doing this.
::I will undo my changes in the amino acid Wikipedia page, but I would like to hear your response on how to approach this problem, formalizing a definition by excluding molecules like Taurine ↗ from the amino acids class or having the definition include molecules such as phosphatidylethanolamine ↗, both situations are problematic, perhaps it's worse not having a definition for an "amino acid" as the situation is now. The reason "organic compound containing both a carboxyl (—COOH) and an amino (—NH2) group" is not the definition is because it doesn't align with Taurine ↗ being an amino acid. MeAbdelkrim (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
:::The textbook definitions of amino acid I've seen basically just cite the structure of a generic proteinogenic amino acid and move on from there. That's a suitable, ''citable'' definition. When there are exceptions (e.g. alternate acid group), the difference can be described and citation provided supporting it is typically grouped with amino acids despite the difference. It's not as satisfying as a single unified definition, but it is basically how the term is used. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 16:11, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Lint errors

Just to let you know. Your "dark mode" CSS changes are raising lint errors: Special:LintErrors/bogus-image-options ↗ -- 92.18.74.149 ↗ (talk) 23:46, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

I didn't realize this would raise lint errors. I could wrap this in a custom span or something to get around it, but that seems like bad form too. Would you have suggestions? Otherwise, I'll keep looking into it and maybe just revert that particular addition. Relatively few of those boxes have signatures. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 23:53, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

:No doubt Jonesy95, jdlrobson, bruce1ee and others may well take a look at this. -- 92.18.74.149 ↗ (talk) 23:57, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

::I swapped the class onto the table's td element and switched up the CSS. I'm not seeing the lint error for the testcases subpage, so I think that fixed it. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 00:18, 2 August 2025 (UTC)

First of many....

Hi Synpath. As mentioned in your thread, I've used the template at Acetylserotonin O-methyltransferase#Reactions catalyzed ↗ and in doing so some questions/comments arose. Check out <code><nowiki>{{Chemrxn|width=50%|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=5-Methoxyindoleacetic acid}}
{{Chemrxn/cpd|5-methoxyindole-3-acetic acid}}
}}</nowiki></code> which gives
{{Chemrxn|width=50%|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=5-Methoxyindoleacetic acid}}
{{Chemrxn/cpd|5-methoxyindole-3-acetic acid}}
}}
The first "sub" uses the underlying file from Wikidata at 5-methoxyindole-3-acetic acid - Wikidata ↗ but trying to use it directly in the second "cpd" line gives that strange output, despite the same "cpd" syntax working perfectly well with 5-Hydroxyindoleacetic acid.

Less important but worth mentioning is that I can't work out how to suppress the Wikilink (i.e. avoid the redlink) although you have provided a |link= parameter to force a target, if needed. Would something like |link=null be useful? Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:48, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
:<code><nowiki>{{Chemrxn/cpd|5-methoxyindole-3-acetic acid}}</nowiki></code> returns null output rather than an error after not finding the name "5-methoxyindole-3-acetic acid" in Wikidata. This is odd since the compound does have a page. I can make this clear by outputting an error with {{tp|Error if empty}}, but I'll have to look closer to see why this didn't work in the first place.

:Also, I actually made a choice to always force a link since I was wrongly assuming that chemicals with a wikidata item would also have and article/redirect associated with them. I can rework that so that the link needs to be made manually by the editor. No additional mucking about with a link= parameter, just write whatever wikitext you want for the caption. So input for 5-hydroxyindolacetic acid ↗ could look like: <code><nowiki>{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption={{nowrap|(5-Hydroxy-1H-indol-3-yl)acetic}} acid ↗}}</nowiki></code>.

:For the TM:Chemrxn/cpd ↗ template, I think introducing a similar <code>caption</code> or a new <code>nolink</code> parameter that overrides the default linking behaviour is the way to go. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 22:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
::Wikidata has an enormous number of compounds which don't have en: articles, since a lot were cross-loaded from PubChem ↗ or ChemSpider ↗ (I forget which). Many won't have images, although some that are missing articles in English will have them from e.g. German, French or Spanish articles: hence the "Metoxindolacetato.png" in the case discussed here. Your idea of having an error message if there's no image in Wikidata is a good one. Editors who run into that message can either look for an existing image on Commons that could be added to the Wikidata record or upload an .svg to Commons and make Wikidata link to it. A later piece of work is going to be to document all this in your template pages! Using <code>nolink</code> sounds good. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:17, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Minor niggle?

Now looking at <code><nowiki>{{Chemical reaction|width=80%|
{{Chemical reaction/compound|Citrulline}}
{{Chemrxn/compound|Citrulline}}
}}</nowiki></code> which gives {{Chemical reaction|width=80%|
{{Chemical reaction/compound|Citrulline}}
{{Chemrxn/compound|Citrulline}}
}}

The template being transcluded is the same (i.e. {{t|Chemical reaction}} has {{t|Chemrxn}} as a shortcut). However, I think you need shortcuts for all possible combinations, or when editors mix things up the result will be as above. The same problem does not arise with <code><nowiki>{{Chemical reaction|width=80%|
{{Chemical reaction/cpd|Citrulline}} }}</nowiki></code> which gives {{Chemical reaction|width=80%|
{{Chemical reaction/cpd|Citrulline}}}}

You could, of course, insist on expanded parameters like "compound" everywhere, which might make the syntax clearer to non-specialists who looked at the source code. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

:A good point, I'll make the redirects. Explicit parameters for compounds at the level of the wrapping template TM:Chemrxn ↗ would work, but the template source code will quickly get verbose. It's a bit of a style thing and I think the current implementation is one of the simpler ways of implementing the template. Though it comes at the cost of a weird way of inputting values as nested consecutive templates instead of distinct parameters. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 22:51, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
::Yes, I wondered why the implementation required multiple template calls but I quickly got used to it. One template call per reaction subcomponent is actually quite intuitive and, I suspect, more versatile in the long term. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:19, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

Interaction between width and upright

I've just edited the Thiopurine methyltransferase ↗ article to add a typical reaction. I had to draw the product and add it to Wikidata but that part went well. (As an aside, this seems to be another case where the image isn't picked up using the <code>|cpd</code> method). However, I found a strange interaction between the width parameter and the upright one. My problem was that the the image for the starting material was slightly smaller than the product when I took a width of 45%, namely <code><nowiki>{{Chemrxn|width=45%|
{{Chemrxn/cpd|Mercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/txt|+ SAM ↗}}
{{Chemrxn/arw|direction=forward}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/txt|+ SAH ↗}}
}}</nowiki></code> giving
{{Chemrxn|width=45%|
{{Chemrxn/cpd|Mercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/txt|+ SAM ↗}}
{{Chemrxn/arw|direction=forward}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/txt|+ SAH ↗}}
}}
No matter how I fiddled by adding <code>|upright=</code> to one or other of the images I could not get them to be the same size. Then I tried altering the <code>width</code> parameter and to my surprise found that it changed the size of the starting material but not the product and with a value of 55% I got exactly what I needed! Clearly, something odd is going on. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:This is a bit of a unintuitive interaction I didn't consider. For most cases of a reaction scheme, the minimum size of the image is determined by the longest word in the caption. This can get pretty long for chemical names, and so some images may get stuck looking very large. ''In those cases'', <code>upright</code> can only make images ''smaller'' than that minimum length and not larger. See:
'''upright=1.7''' -- {{highlight|Note: the effect becomes obvious only for smaller template widths. If all the images look identical slowly decrease the width of your browser window and see how they scale.|lightblue}}
{{Chemrxn|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWWWW}}
}}
'''upright=0.7'''
{{Chemrxn|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWWWW}}
}}
'''upright=0.3'''
{{Chemrxn|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWW}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=WWWWWWWWWWWWW}}
}}

:However, when there is excess horizontal space in the scheme <code>upright</code> ''can'' make an image larger than the caption, see (again this demonstration is dependent on your browser window size):
{{Chemrxn|
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.3|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=upright=0.3}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=0.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=upright=0.7}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|upright=1.7|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=upright=1.7}}
}}
:I'll need to give it some thought on how to make sizing more predictable. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 22:43, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
::I've made something of a fix that you can see demonstrated at Template:Chemical reaction/testcases#widths ↗, but there's some weirdness with the upright=0.3 ↗ testcase. I'll have to take another look tomorrow. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 02:59, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I'm glad you know what you are doing as this would certainly have foxed me! I don't think you need a "perfect" answer as anyone who becomes familiar with the template will soon learn the sort of tricks that help sizing tweaks, including the possibility of using upright < 1 on one component and > 1 on another. The main issue, I think, is not to have the width parameter interfere with the upright one. Width should, IMO, just scale the whole diagram into a final size, although I appreciate that may be difficult as you need the text font to be constant as seen by the reader. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to use the template in live articles as "what links here" on the template page will show. This is giving me some ideas, one of which I'll mention in the next section here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:51, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Unfortunately, I don't think I can currently get the CSS to behave in a way where upright will always determine the relative size of the images before everything gets scaled to the template width. The change I made yesterday is surprisingly the most durable solution after doing some more testing today, and I think it lets upright be usable though it might require some trial and error. All I could do to improve it was adjust the captions to not overlap. I'll have to read up on how html image elements interact with flex flow to make more progress on this. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 02:55, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Michael D. Turnbull}} I've finally updated the live template from the tweaks I was making in the sandbox, then updated some of the transclusions you made over the past couple of days. The template is much more reliable in how it displays now, and (dare I say) it felt pretty good to use. It still needs polishing imo. But, my goodness, thank you so much for testing this out with me! It would have taken me so much longer to even find these display and usability issues. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 02:54, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

Another idea

This idea addresses two current issues. The first is that some compounds are giving error messages despite being on Wikidata. 6-Methylmercaptopurine is an example. The second is that some chemical names are very long and prone to typos when entered by an editor who wants to use the "cpd" method of lookup. This is less of an issue with the "sub" method, as filenames tend to be more user-friendly. My suggestion is that all three of
{{Chemrxn|width=60%|
{{Chemrxn/cpd|6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/sub|frameless|class=skin-invert-image ↗|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
{{Chemrxn/cpd|qid=Q27103606|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
}}

should work. The middle uses "sub" and the first uses "cpd" but fails for an as-yet unknown reason. The third is a new proposal: make "cpd" accept Wikidata Q-numbers directly as an alternative to typing a long name (or, indeed, any name). Thoughts? Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:12, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

:After another day using the template successfully, I note that <code><nowiki>{{Chemical structure|qid=Q27103606|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}</nowiki></code> already gives
:{{Chemical structure|qid=Q27103606|caption=6-Methylmercaptopurine}}
:This suggests that implementing that idea was already on your "to-do" list! Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
::Yes! I knew I forgot something with that one - I can quickly put it in. <s>Also, I am now suspecting that the compounds that are being missed on Wikidata despite having an entry are those that start with a number. This might be a syntax issue</s>. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 02:59, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
::For example:
::{{Chemical structure|5-beta-dihydrotestosterone}}
::{{Chemical structure|qid=Q27096666|caption=5-beta-dihydrotestosterone}} ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 03:12, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
::Guessed too soon. The issue is that Wikidata info retrieval template only works when Wikipedia article names or Q-IDs. Names associated with the Q-ID of a Wikidata item are not enough. That makes a lot of sense. Examples:
::*(Article) 2-Hydroxyisobutyric acid ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=2-Hydroxyisobutyric acid|P117}}|Not found}}
::*(Redirect to 2-Hydroxyisobutyric acid) 2-methyllactic acid ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=2-methyllactic acid|P117}}|Not found}}
::*(Article) Isoprenaline ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=Isoprenaline|P117}}|Not found}}
::*(Redirect to Isoprenaline) Isoproterenol ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=Isoproterenol|P117}}|Not found}}
::*(Redlink) 5-beta-dihydrotestosterone ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=5-beta-dihydrotestosterone|P117}}|Not found}}
::*(Redlink) 6-Methylmercaptopurine ↗: {{Error if empty|{{wikidata|property|raw|page=6-Methylmercaptopurine|P117}}|Not found}}
::Perhaps the best case would be to output a more informative error message after failing to find a Wikidata item by name. Something like: "No Wikidata entry is associated with <code>ARTICLE NAME</code>. Try a qualifier ID." ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 04:37, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:::That's interesting and somewhat unexpected. Not a serious issue now the qid is working. Your error message could say "try a qid or filename" or similar, since both are now alternatives. The filenames need to use <code>Chemrxn/sub</code> not <code>Chemrxn/cpd</code> but editors familiar with the template would know that. Overall, I think that it is shaping up very well. Incidentally, I don't support someone's suggestion of making the arrows longer as the total width of a diagram is always the biggest constraint. However, I'd support making the arrowheads clearer: see :File:Thiamazole synthesis route B.svg ↗ for one of my drawings which uses the standard ACS settings as specified at MOS:CSDG ↗. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:07, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
::::I'm now getting much faster at this, with the qid parameter being a real game-changer since all I really need to do is draw the individual components that are missing, upload them to Commons and make the Wikidata link. I've now reviewed all the articles in {{t|One carbon transferases}} and either done them or decided they were already OK. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:12, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::I agree on updating the arrow legibility with an all-round 'bolder' version. It's just that it would require something like 32 images of arrows (48 if you also want the reverse-only direction). Before doing that, I would want to see if I could do some image stacking trick to bring it down to 6-7 images. This would a neat case to draw a simple svg on the fly.
:::::I'll update the error message as well
:::::I'm so glad you're finding the template has good use cases—I had thought there was a good chance the general response would be to just make the svg schemes. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:56, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Michael D. Turnbull}} can you spare some time to look at the /sandbox arrows at Template:Chemical reaction/arrow/testcases ↗? Are some of the arrows too bolded? ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:31, 25 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::Hey, these are great! I think that even the most pedantic chemistry nerd would approve your new set of arrows. To be fully useful in standard chemical reactions, there needs to be a way to place text in the same font as the captions to the compounds above (and maybe below) the arrow. So isopropanol to acetone would have something like {{chem2|NaBH4}} using {{t|chem2}} and acetone to isopropanol might have {{chem2|CrO3}}. You don't need to go overboard on the text allowed as WP:NOTTEXTBOOK ↗ applies to these schemes. About the level in my earlier example at :File:Thiamazole synthesis route B.svg ↗ would be perfect. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:34, 25 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks for taking a look. I've made a start on a different type of arrow a week ago before taking a break, see User:Synpath/Sandbox_Templates and User:Synpath/Sandbox Templates/chemarw. The template currently doesn't have an option for not using the numbered list, but that can be changed. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 15:13, 25 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::::I approve of the way you've done the examples in the main sandbox_templates. Now I look at them again, I think that the arrows are too bolded, as you suggested. This is not a big deal but their width should probably be more in line with the bond widths of the chemicals at that scale. More importantly, you have used a parameter <code>|width=</code> for what I think should definitely be renamed <code>|length=</code>! I guess that you were thinking in terms of the overall width of the image, as for the <code>chemrxn</code> parameter of the same name but using that name for both would be confusing, I think, and an arrow's length is more obvious nomenclature. I especially like the auto-wrapping of the text to fit the arrow. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:06, 26 November 2025 (UTC)

Merge needed

While adding various reactions today, I came across what seems to be two enzyme articles that probably should be merged. This needs an expert view (i.e. you!). See Talk:Amine dehydrogenase ↗. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:42, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

:I'll take a look ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:56, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks. Another I've done today is (R)-4-hydroxyphenyllactate dehydrogenase ↗ {{KEGG enzyme|1.1.222}} which according to KEGG should now be merged with {{KEGG enzyme|1.1.1.110}}. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Yep, needs to be merged with Indolelactate dehydrogenase ↗ and renamed aromatic 2-oxoacid reductase ↗. I suspect there might be some subtlety here if I were to delve into primary references, but I am happy to match a niche page to the KEGG/BRENDA/Expasy entries. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 21:54, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
:::{{done}} ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 23:43, 23 November 2025 (UTC)

Hi Synpath! I patrol CAT:MISSFILE ↗, and was noticing that one of your edits to {{tl|Chemical reaction/arrow/testcases}} added a non-existent file to the template yesterday (the first reaction arrow under the "Resonance" section). I would fix it myself, but I'm not super experienced in template editing and don't want to mess up any of your work. When you get a chance, could you take a look at your edits again to correct the missing image error? Thanks so much, <span style="color:#7F00FF">'''Katniss'''</span> <span style="color:#FF007F"> ''May the odds be ever in your favor ♥''</span> 14:31, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

:I'm adding some functionality to the TM:Chemrxn/arw ↗ template that it didn't have before and testing it in the background. The live template can't digest the input and tries to find a file that doesn't exist. The new arrow isn't quite ready to go live, but I can modify the testcase since it isn't useful testing functionality that I know doesn't exist. Thanks for your vigilance! ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 15:08, 17 November 2025 (UTC)

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More comments

Hi Synpath. I'm making good progress on List of EC numbers (EC 1) ↗ and the template is working well. I've run across a couple of minor issues. At L-iditol 2-dehydrogenase ↗ I initially forgot the <code>|frameless|class=skin-invert-image</code> for one of the files I used but when adding it and actually trying dark mode using the binoculars icon provided next to usernames on my standard PC + browser I found that this image is still blacked out while the <code>chemrxn/cpd</code> image was fine (i.e. became white on black). Is this a bug? I'm not even sure that the frameless parameter is now required. See that article's history for my edits: currently there is a filename but no extra parameters.

When adding reaction diagrams I now often add the template {{t|KEGG enzyme}} as a reference. Its not one of yours but can you explain why it gives a small font and maybe fix that if it wasn't deliberate? Compare this reference<ref>Enzyme 1.1.1.14 at KEGG Pathway</ref> with this.<ref>{{KEGG enzyme|1.1.1.14}}</ref>
{{talkref}}
Thanks. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:29, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

:I've checked and the KEGG template uses <code><nowiki><span style="font-size: 85%;"></nowiki></code>. Maybe User:Zephyris would like to comment? Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::That's exactly why it appears small in the footnotes. It seems that the template is often used in the body of the article (e.g. Fructose 1,6-bisphosphate ↗) and there the font size looks more sensible. Though, in the linked page and similar examples, that way of linking to KEGG is very confusing. The KEGG identifiers are spatially separated from what they refer to. These should be co-located as footnotes, for intuitive clarity, as you are doing. {{tp|KEGG enzyme}} is transcluded about 70 times so it's tractable to manually fix these uses, then remove the span tags. I would volunteer to do so, as well. This assumes that there isn't a different use I am not seeing. Maybe <nowiki><ref></nowiki> or {{tp|efn}} could be built into the external link template to make it clear that this is how it should be used. Documentation would also help. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 21:31, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Agreed. The example you gave for Fructose 1,6-bisphosphate ↗ is not exactly intuitive and I see no harm if it were at standard font size, since the compound and enzyme links currently don't match up with the material they are describing anyway. The way I use the template will come to dominate long-term, I think. It is already about 50 of the 70! As you say, it is just the documentation that needs to change, not the actual template, other than to fix the font size. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:39, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
:Sorry I couldn't respond earlier.
:For L-iditol 2-dehydrogenase ↗ your initial fix would have worked, it just didn't get wrapped in the double brackets of the file link. And you're right, <code>frameless</code> isn't required, but the <code>upright</code> parameter only works when used in conjunction with <code>frameless</code>. For example, I made this change at L-iditol 2-dehydrogenase ↗ to demonstrate. Would it be nice to have an option for TM:Chemical reaction/subunit ↗ that accepted an image file name and added the file linking automatically?
:This has me thinking I should default the template to use the <code>skin-invert-image</code> class for images. This won't require any AWB runs to change existing transclusions since duplicates of this CSS class shouldn't change the behaviour of the CSS rules. Though, I can imagine that there might be a situation where one would want to opt out of using <code>skin-invert-image</code>, so I'll make a parameter to opt out. It'll be called something cumbersome like <code>noskininvert</code>. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 21:18, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks for the explanations. Now I'll put the <code>skin-invert-image</code> in the correct place! The interaction between frameless and upright would never have occurred to me but makes sense now you mention it. I'll defer to you for how you implement all this in future: just keep the documentation in step with your changes! Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:43, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I think I'm keeping on top of the documentation, but its minimal and split up into the subpages as well. I'll need to centralize it and elaborate a bit more on usage. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:33, 25 November 2025 (UTC)

Arrows

Hi Synpath. I am amazed by what you did at Template:Chemical reaction/arrow ↗. Well done. --Grufo (talk) 14:51, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you! It's still not completely done. The small screen readability has been frustrating to balance between the text size and image size. But even so, I think it is in a good place for replacing all-text chemical reaction schemes.
:I've wanted a dynamic image generator for a while now and I'm glad it has come to Wikipedia and that it is very easy to use. Thanks for making it accessible! ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:07, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

:: You are very welcome, Synpath. I used the {{Tl|Show SVG}} template in a similar way on Latin Wikipedia at {{la:Tempus musicum ↗}} (you will have to click on these dashed underlined tempo markings to see the SVG). Nothing comparable to the complexity of {{Tl|Chemical reaction/arrow}} however. We both have to thank MediaWiki's developers who recently created <code>mw.svg</code> ↗ (I was only fast at putting that in a very tiny module). --Grufo (talk) 03:32, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::: P.S. My suggestion concerning chemical reactions is to move the entire thing, including the names of the molecules and everything else (not just the arrows), to a single (dynamic) SVG file (I know it can be complicate). This will have two advantages: reactions will appear identical on every device (although the fonts used can be a problem), and the reader will be able to download and reuse the generated images. --Grufo (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::::Butting in on this, User:Grufo as someone who has made extensive (>200) use of the new templates: and see also threads above here. I would advise against putting everything into a single file. One of the advantages of the current implementation is that the individual chemicals seen in a scheme can be clicked by the reader to take them to that chemical's file on Commons, which then links to other places that file has been used and may give extra useful information. Anyone who wants to download the reaction scheme can use a screen-clipping program to get a .png file very easily (although not an .svg, obviously). Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::::: @Mike Turnbull: But they will still be able to click if there is a corresponding image on Commons ({{Tl|Show SVG}} supports a {{para|link}} parameter). However, if I am not wrong, the point here is to be able to create any reaction on the fly, also when not present on Commons. Am I wrong? --Grufo (talk) 16:50, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::::::I'm not an expert on {{t|Show SVG}} but I assume that there can only be one Commons link per reaction scheme. For most chemical reactions, either A <-> B (most common for enzymes) or A -> B -> C etc (for standard chemistry) I think the ideal is that each of A, B and C link separately to their image on Commons. I'm not sure what you mean by "when not present on Commons", because for chemistry the structures are always on Commons, except in the trivial case where you can use text, such as H<sub>2</sub>O for water and would not need the {{t|chemrxn}} template. You are correct that the aim of the template is to create reactions from the component chemicals and never have to draw/upload a separate scheme. This has many advantages, not least of which is that every time a chemical is used in a scheme it looks the same as it does in all other schemes and, over time, we will achieve much more consistency in our drawings (see MOS:CSDG ↗ for details). Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::::::: Then the template could be implemented as one SVG per reaction. My point was ensuring small screen readability, and that is guaranteed when there is no HTML and everything is SVG. Whether it will be one single SVG or one SVG per reaction it will likely be irrelevant. --Grufo (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I see what you mean. Each reaction component and the arrows could be SVG. The only downside then is that chemicals drawn as PNG graphics, which are less preferred but currently allowed, could not be used. Whether Synpath could implement your suggestion, I have no idea! Mike Turnbull (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2025 (UTC)
{{ping|Grufo}} Embedding everything into a single SVG is something I hadn't considered and would solve a lot of problems. Though, it would lead to some letters/labels being too small on some screens. Of course, that is always a problem with any image that scales down with screen size. It is also seemingly not hard to do with {{xtag|image}} elements and a URL to Commons. I suspect that may not work though, does it? It would also require using a Module as I wouldn't know how to set widths without knowing how many images and arrows are in the scheme. Not really an issue, but I'm not as comfortable with Lua as with other languages. I also have some vague concerns with image size since images are typically split into sets of small to large PNGs for display in order to save bandwidth. Or at least that is what I assume is happening with the <code>srcset</code> attribute on {{xtag|img}} elements.

{{ping|Michael D. Turnbull}} I think some of your concerns on an all-in-one reaction scheme SVG can be addressed by doing something similar to TM:CineMol ↗ where clicking the SVG produces a zoom-in with a descriptive caption including links to each molecule on Commons. Of course, I do not think Commons would be able to link back to the images' use on enwiki through the SVG link alone. I'm hoping other links via {{elc|:File:...}} or similar is detectable. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 01:20, 20 December 2025 (UTC)
: I might not have enough experience with pictures depicting chemical reactions to give a precise answer, but my general suggestion would be not to mix images on Commons with SVGs generated locally (although I can be wrong). The images on Commons can always be linked though. As for using modules, creating one only for only counting the images might be overkill. Or maybe it isn't. What template syntax did you have in mind? {{Tq|“I'm not as comfortable with Lua as with other languages”}}: There are people lately saying that I keep pushing it around, but this other module I created ↗ might be for you. {{Tq|“Images are typically split into sets of small to large PNGs for display in order to save bandwidth”}}: The images you create with {{Tl|Show SVG}} are never converted to PNG files, they are always shown as SVGs (that is why animations work). --Grufo (talk) 04:10, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

Lathosterol

Hi again Synpath. I've been working today on lathosterol ↗ and the enzyme Δ7-sterol 5(6)-desaturase ↗ which converts it to 7-dehydrocholesterol ↗. The enzyme seems to have had a history of confusion, with EC numbers 1.3.3.2 -> 1.14.21.6 -> currently 1.14.19.20. In learning about this I notice that we have an article with the strange name Sterol-C5-desaturase-like ↗, which is about the related gene SC5D. My understanding is that we usually combine gene and enzyme articles in one place. Am I correct in thinking that a merger would be helpful in this case? Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2026 (UTC)

:Soo, my understanding of how Wikipedia is currently organized in terms of gene and protein articles: the only gene articles that exists are those that have been studied in/for a human context and everything else is a protein-focused article. The human gene articles will often be ambiguous on whether it is talking about a gene or protein. The protein articles often stick to talking about protein and (in theory) try to remain as general as possible in terms of species ↗ outside of the human context. The bias/emphasis on human genes is probably due to the health-effects of gene mutation ↗s and human chauvinism, if I had to guess.
:''Enzyme reaction'' articles are interesting in that they can cover enzymes with identical function that emerged via convergent evolution ↗ and are otherwise unrelated in structure or gene heritage. These shouldn't be merged under a single gene or protein article, but still can be notable as a purely functional grouping.
:So for Sterol-C5-desaturase-like ↗, the split between human gene and more general protein article, Δ7-sterol 5(6)-desaturase ↗, looks pretty normal to me. That said, Sterol-C5-desaturase-like ↗ isn't the right name for the gene and it should be Sterol-C5-desaturase ↗ or SC5D ↗ per many of the links in the infobox but also HGNC:10547 ↗.
:{{small|(Sorry it took so long for me to answer!)}} ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 21:14, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
::OK, thanks for the explanation. I've created the redirect from SC5D ↗ but won't bother with the rename as it makes little difference. As Wilson said, a week is a long time in politics ↗ but you were much faster than that! Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:36, 23 January 2026 (UTC)

Listing for discussion of :Template:Neuropsychology sidebar/styles.css ↗

30px|alt=icon ↗ :Template:Neuropsychology sidebar/styles.css ↗, a dependency of this page, has been listed for discussion ↗, which may result in the template being merged ↗ or deleted ↗ by consensus ↗. You are invited to comment on the proposed action at '''the entry on the Templates for discussion page''' ↗. Gonnym (talk) 05:47, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

PDB links

While continuing my addition of reaction templates to enzyme articles, I noticed that the template {{t|PDB link}}, for example {{PDB link|1AY4}} is broken and is giving a message about alternative sources of the information. This clearly affects thousands of links. Can you take a look, please, and see if you can fix this? Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2026 (UTC)

:The way I would handle this is to move TM:PDB link ↗ to TM:PDBsum link ↗ or TM:PDBsum ↗ and retarget TM:PDB link ↗ to TM:Protein Data Bank link ↗. The naming aligns with less surprise and side-steps the issue with PDBsum ↗ being down. I can do this in the evening, thanks for bringing it up.
:It's a shame to see PDBsum not being a priority for maintenance--they had some nice tools there. I suppose they're all still accessible though. ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 15:50, 23 June 2026 (UTC)
:The page was move protected, so I posted a request at WP:RM/TR ↗. Admin Asukite did the move + retarget (Special:Diff/1360997805 ↗). ⇌ ↗ '''Syn'''path 15:37, 25 June 2026 (UTC)
::Excellent. Thanks to you and User:Asukite for the quick work. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

Nomination of :Template:Chemical structure ↗ for discussion

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