User Talk: HoldenFan1104

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November 2023

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hello, I'm Chaotic Enby. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions ↗ to :Ford Fairmont ↗ have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse ↗ or the Help desk ↗. Thanks. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 10:13, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:Hey Chaotic,
:I was just changing the Ford Fairmont page to a redirect for the Australian and North American versions. The information in the Ford Fairmont page has been copied to the Ford Fairmont (North America) page.
:Regards, Holden. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 10:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
::My apologies, I was patrolling vandalism, saw a page blanking and didn't see you were building a disambig page. My bad. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 10:21, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
:::Apologies for not specifying in the edit reasons, will make sure to be more careful in the future.
:::Keep up the good work as always.
:::Regards, Holden. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 10:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hi, and thank you for your contributions ↗ to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give :Ford Fairmont ↗ a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move ↗", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history ↗, which is legally required for attribution ↗. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be ''moved'' to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases for registered users, once your account is four days old and has ten edits ↗, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab ↗ at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu ↗ for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect ↗ from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves ↗ to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Requests for history merge ↗. Thank you.  * Pppery * it has begun... 15:32, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

:Thanks for the information, the only page where I have ever done a cut-and-past move is for the Ford Fairmont article.
:Apologies for not moving the page, keep up the good work too.
:Kind regards. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 04:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

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List of destinations @ Talk:United Airlines ↗

I noticed that under the Destinations and Hubs section there is no list of United destinations. I can distinctly recall having seen an article or chart for United Airlines in the past, same as just about every other major airline in existence.

As I don't have an account, could someone recreate the "List of United Airlines Destinations" page? 130.76.24.16 ↗ (talk) 07:45, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

:An attempt was recently made ↗ to insert a table of all destinations into the article. I believe this is WP:UNDUE ↗ and violates WP:NOTDB ↗. I have reverted for now, but wanted to open a discussion here. EducatedRedneck (talk) 11:24, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
::Hey Educated, thanks for providing a reason for the revert. I personally think it is appropriate to have the list of destinations within the article, as it is important information to a reader whom may be interested in viewing routes. Especially when there is not a very clear list of routes outside of Wikipedia. American Airlines and the AirAsia group articles also have databases within their articles. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:35, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
:::Thanks for responding to the discussion so quickly! I can see the argument that a reader may be interested. My main concern is that giving it so much real estate comes off as promotional, sort of like a catalogue of goods or services offered by a company. That it was collapsed is a good start, but since it seems almost every entry is sourced to a live map United offers, perhaps it'd be easier and more WP:DUE ↗ to note somewhere that United offers a map of route coverage, and link to that map in the citation. I'd also like to hear from other editors; I'm new enough that I could be mistaken in my interpretation of policy, so hearing from others would be welcome. EducatedRedneck (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
::::Thank you too for your reply, I totally understand how it may come off as promotional. But most airlines on Wikipedia have their own dedicated article for a list of destinations, there is even a category for 'List of airline destinations' at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_airline_destinations
::::United also doesn't seem to have an online map for its routes anymore, making it pretty hard to find a decent list of their current routes on a third party website. I believe it should be returned and remain as a collapsible box, just as additional information to a reader who may be interested, just like the American Airlines main article with a box. And for what's it worth, the collapsible box actually makes it less eyecatchy/promotional in my opinion. But I'm open to discussion
::::Cheers HoldenFan1104 (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::I can see that. I still think the article is better without the box, and that (other articles notwithstanding) a list is not necessary, but until/unless a consensus against its inclusion emerges, I've self-reverted. Thanks again for being so responsive! EducatedRedneck (talk) 01:08, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::No worries, thanks for the discussion and the revert. See you around. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 03:48, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::A 2018 RFC ↗ found consensus that: "...Wikipedia should not have these lists, due to the excessive detail and maintenance required for keeping a local version up to date of data which is available directly from airline websites anyway. Basically, the arguments in Wikipedia is not a directory."
:::::::This was later upheld in a 2024 AFD ↗ discussion specifically related to the list of United Airlines destinations.
:::::::In light of that, I don't think these tables belong on this page (or any page). We would need to see widespread consensus for a policy change before adding these back. -- RickyCourtney (talk) 23:35, 10 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::In contrary the widely held consensus is that properly referenced tables are more than fine. Your removal is not ok. Axisstroke (talk) 16:41, 20 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Here’s my take: There are already many dedicated article pages for airline destinations, as seen at ‘Category: List of airline destinations’. I personally believe that keeping a collapsible table with destinations would be beneficial. But that is ultimately not my decision, it’s of the consensus. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 00:21, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::I’ll just point out that collapsible tables don’t collapse on mobile devices, and most Wikipedia traffic is on mobile devices. RickyCourtney (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::I found a way to make the list collapsible for mobile users, have tested it myself and it appears to work perfectly. I've copied both the United and American destinations into my own personal sandbox for updates, you can test out the collapsible box under 'American Airlines' at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:HoldenFan1104/List_of_United_Airlines_destinations HoldenFan1104 (talk) 10:53, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::@HoldenFan1104 I can confirm that this works on my mobile device. Thank you! EducatedRedneck (talk) 10:58, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Beautiful, should be up on both the United Airlines and American Airlines main articles under 'Networks' for both. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::@Axisstroke Do you have a link to any of these widely held consenses? Per WP:LEVELSOFCON ↗, an RFC is considered one of the best representations of community consensus, and RickyCourtney has linked to multiple RFCs against inclusion. Unless you have a more recent RFC, Axisstroke, I think we have to go with the consensus that was widely established. EducatedRedneck (talk) 01:18, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::Indeed there was a very recent RFC that favor the destinations lists: Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 60#RfC on WP:NOT and British Airways destinations ↗ found that these lists do not violate WP:NOT ↗. Hence consensus with wide participation is given. Axisstroke (talk) 08:53, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::Gave this a read, this certainly confirms that destination articles are allowed to have a place on Wikipedia. If there are so many dedicated Wikipedia articles for airline destinations, then a small collapsible box (that can also work on mobile) should certainly be allowed. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 10:54, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::@Axisstroke That's very helpful, thank you! While it's not a perfect fit (this RFC is about standalone lists, it's only saying it doesn't violate WP:NOT ↗ but not positively affirming its inclusion, etc.) enough of the comments were discussing merging standalone lists with the airline articles that a strong argument could be made. I still think the encyclopedia is better without them, but the RFC is both more recent and close enough in subject that I take it as overturning the prior consensus. EducatedRedneck (talk) 10:57, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::Yes, it certainly is a bit of a complicated thing to discuss. Like I've been mentioning, I do believe that these lists do deserve a place on Wikipedia. Even while this platform is not exactly a 'database', these lists contain information for historical routes which may be of interest to many readers (like myself), especially with the all the proper sourcing and referencing these routes have.
::::::::::::I have chosen to re-add the two lists back to their respect articles as collapsible lists (which I've edited to now also work as a collapsible list on mobile). HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:04, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I agree with EducatedRedneck that the encyclopedia is better without them as Wikipedia is not a travel guide, nor a database, nor a specialty site. However I also realize that there’s a group of editors who passionately want these tables as evidenced by the RfC.
:::::::::::::@HoldenFan1104 The chart that you added has quite a few holes in sourcing which needs to be addressed ASAP. Furthermore, it heavily relies on primary sources (the United route map). Considering the recent drama over the airport destination boxes, someone is gonna call this out if not replaced by reliable, secondary sources. RickyCourtney (talk) 15:48, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I will see to this soon. The database was essentially just taken from the original dedicated page. I have looked over it and the info should be accurate, but I’ll try and get some more secondary references in. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 22:30, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

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CS1 error on Perth Airport ↗

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July 2025

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hello, I'm Avgeekamfot. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, :Adelaide Airport ↗, but you didn't provide a reliable source ↗. On Wikipedia, it's important that article content be verifiable ↗. If you'd like to resubmit your change with a citation ↗, your edit is archived in the page history ↗. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. ''Note that Simple Flying is not a reliable source, WP:Simple Flying ↗. Thanks!''  Avgeekamfot (talk) 10:46, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you for the info, will make sure for the future HoldenFan1104 (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hello, I'm Danners430. I noticed that you recently removed content ↗ from :Shanghai Pudong International Airport ↗ without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary ↗. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page ↗. Thanks. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 07:57, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

:Hey Danners, when checking links such as:
:https://info.flightmapper.net/airport/CNS
:https://info.flightmapper.net/airport/PER
:The route from Cairns and Perth to Shanghai no longer exists, this is further reinforced by the absence of the routes on flightconnections.com. I figured it was a simple removal, as the routes are no longer operated. I have reverted the edit back to my revision, with the above links given in the summary. Thank you. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 08:50, 24 July 2025 (UTC)
::That's what's needed - exactly that. It was reverted purely and simply because you removed sourced content, and there was no source to back up the removal - what you've done now is exactly what was needed. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 09:11, 24 July 2025 (UTC)
:::Apologies for not doing so before, was a bit confused about the rules on links in edit summaries. But lesson learned. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2025 (UTC)
::::Basically, as a general rule sources don't go in the edit summary - they go in the article. But there are situations, like here, where the source does belong in the edit summary because you're removing content that's out of date. It would be silly to have a section in the article for sources for all the stuff that was removed, so in that case it does make sense to remove it with an edit summary source. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 09:14, 24 July 2025 (UTC)
:::::Definitely, bear in mind I made similar edits on articles for Perth Airport, Cairns Airport and List of China Eastern Airlines destinations, without having done the same in my edit summaries. Apologies for that, though I cannot change the previous edits unfortunately. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 09:16, 24 July 2025 (UTC)
::::::What you can do is a "dummy edit", where you just add or remove, for example, a space at the end of a paragraph - purely to generate an edit so you can update the edit summary Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 09:19, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

September 2025

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hello. Thank you for your contributions ↗ to Wikipedia ↗. I noticed that one or more recent edits you made did not have an edit summary ↗. Collaboration among editors is fundamental to Wikipedia, and every edit should be explained by a clear edit summary ↗, or by discussion on the talk page ↗. Please use the edit summary field to explain your reasoning for an edit and/or to describe what it changes. Summaries save time for other editors and reduce the chances that your edit will be misunderstood. For some edits, an adequate summary may be quite brief ↗.

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{{strong|Please provide an edit summary for every edit you make.}} When logged in to your Wikipedia account ↗, you can give yourself a reminder by setting {{myprefs|3|check={{int:tog-forceeditsummary}}}}, and then click the "{{int:saveprefs}}" button.
Thanks!{{sp}} Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 11:19, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

:Hi Danners,
:Thank you for letting me know, I have enabled the prompt through settings and will continue to include summaries going forward.
:Kind regards. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

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February 2026

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hi HoldenFan1104! I noticed that you recently made an edit at :Darwin International Airport ↗ and marked it as "minor", but it may not have been. On Wikipedia, "minor edit ↗" refers only to superficial edits that could never be disputed, such as fixing typo ↗s or reverting obvious vandalism ↗. Any edit that changes the meaning of an article is not minor, even if it only concerns a single word. Thank you.  Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 11:18, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

:Hi Danners430.
:Thank you for your advice, I will take this into account for future edits and will ensure the correct markings are used going forward. Thank you for your mindfulness and keep up the great work on Wikipedia. Kind regards, Holden. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:29, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Hello, I'm Thejiujiangdragon. I noticed that you recently removed content ↗ from :Los Angeles International Airport ↗ without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary ↗. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page ↗. Thanks. thejiujiangdragon (TJD) TALK/CONTRIBS ↗ 03:28, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

:Hi Thejiujiangdragon, I did specify the reason for the removal of American Airline's Brisbane service here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Los_Angeles_International_Airport&oldid=1340497059
:I was previously told by Danners430 that if content is being removed from an article, the source should be specified in the edit summary. I have removed the content again, but feel free to message me if there are any issues with this.
:Kind regards, Holden. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:17, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

April 2026

25px|alt=Information icon ↗ Please do not add or change content, as you did at :Changi Airport ↗, without citing a reliable source ↗. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources ↗ to see how to add references to an article. Thank you. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 06:34, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Aeroroutes

Please be aware that Aeroroutes is not considered reliable per the discussion at WP:AEROROUTES ↗ Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 05:18, 21 April 2026 (UTC)

:@HoldenFan1104 this is beginning to verge on the ridiculous. You’ve been told I don’t know how often in edit summaries and had it spelled out here on your talk page that Aeroroutes is not a reliable source, and yet you still persist in trying to add it. STOP. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 09:56, 16 May 2026 (UTC)
::@Danners430 I added the AeroRoutes link by accident while I was locating another source, my mistake and I will ensure the correct one is used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia#Destinations HoldenFan1104 (talk) 10:00, 16 May 2026 (UTC)

May 2026

25px|alt=Warning icon ↗ Please stop. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced ↗ content, as you did at :Adelaide Airport ↗, you may be blocked from editing ↗.  Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 10:40, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

:Sincere apologies, I made that one rapidly and missed proper sourcing. Will be more careful going forward. Thanks HoldenFan1104 (talk) 11:40, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::Please be more careful - this is the third time in only four months that I've left such a warning on your talk page. Please make sure all your edits are properly sourced. Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 11:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

30px|alt=Stop icon ↗ You may be '''blocked from editing ↗ without further warning''' the next time you add unsourced or poorly sourced ↗ material to Wikipedia, as you did at :Changi Airport ↗.  Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 08:03, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

:Same as above, I have made the same type of edits on Tokyo's Narita Airport and Perth Airport, but for some reason missed the referencing when editing Singapore's article. Apologies, restored with the correct ref. HoldenFan1104 (talk) 08:20, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

June 2026

30px|alt=Stop icon ↗ You may be '''blocked from editing ↗ without further warning''' the next time you add unsourced or poorly sourced ↗ material to Wikipedia, as you did at :Hobart Airport ↗. ''You can consider this your final warning. Your whole talk page is full of warnings about unsourced content, yet you continue to add content without sources.'' Danners430 tweaks made ↗ 13:45, 2 June 2026 (UTC)